All about people
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In this episode, I sit down with Jessica Hart of Jessica Hart Consulting to explore the world of HR for small and medium-sized businesses. Jessica shares insights on the most common HR pitfalls, what drives her passion for human resources, and how she navigates the constantly changing legal landscape—especially in California. She also opens up about launching her own consulting practice, juggling family life, and the power of networking in building a business.
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Jessica’s Background
Growing up in Petaluma, CA
Early experiences that sparked her interest in HR
Working in HR at Target and Heineken
Common HR Mistakes in Small Businesses
Wage and hour compliance: Why your payroll provider doesn’t guarantee correct pay
The importance of meal breaks, timekeeping systems, and understanding state/federal laws
Handbooks and policies: keeping them updated (especially in California)
When To Hire HR
Fractional HR services vs. a full-time HR generalist
Complexity (multiple sites, different roles) vs. headcount considerations
Staying informed on legislation changes (California-specific challenges)
Launching Hart Consulting
Transitioning from corporate life to entrepreneurship
Early challenges: software overwhelm, choosing tools
Leveraging networking and referrals to build a client base
Advice for Other Business Owners
“Givers get”: building trust by offering value first
The power of relationship-building and visibility on LinkedIn
Balancing parenting with business demands and enjoying flexibility
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SHRM (Society for Human Resource Management): https://www.shrm.org
Payroll/HR Systems Mentioned:
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Jonathan Mahrt: This is on the Flywheel, a podcast where each week we talk to entrepreneurs and professionals about the practical things they do to build and keep momentum in their personal and professional lives. Hello and welcome to on the Flywheel. I'm your host, Jonathan Mart, Flywheel Consulting. And today I'm excited to have on the podcast Jessica Hart of Hart Consulting. Thank you so much for coming on today.
Jessica Hart: Thanks for having me.
Jonathan Mahrt: So the first thing I like to do is always have guests kind of give us a little bit of their background from a career perspective and talk to us about how they got where they are today.
Jessica Hart: Yeah, man. I guess a little bit about me and background would be that I grew up in Petaluma, California. For everyone that doesn't know where that is, 45 minutes north of the Golden Gate Bridge in terms of getting into my career and such is that I ended up going to Saxon, which is, you know, kind of close to this space. And through that, I was getting a business degree like every kid that goes to college. Right. Like, I don't know what I want to be when I grow up. So I'm gonna get a business degree, I will say.
Jonathan Mahrt: The other one they say is psychology degree. And that's a business degree is a much more useful thing to get if you don't know what you want.
Jessica Hart: Fair. Fair. So, you know, applied for that degree, they're like, oh, well, what, you know, concentration do you want? You have to take the classes before you. You pick it. And I can tell you right now, I did not want to be the police of people in the workplace, which is what I thought HR was. So if you think that too fair outside of that, you know, I was an employee myself that had situations in small to medium sized business market that, you know, I didn't have an HR person to talk to. And through that, I also learned that there are a lot of business owners out there that don't know what they don't know from an HR perspective. And it doesn't matter if you don't know it, it's still is illegal, right? Yeah. You know, they don't just post like the speed limit everywhere for all the laws, you know, for California things or federal things. All that to say is that through an experience where that went wrong and they got it fixed and all the things, I got to see how expensive it is for litigation and how expensive it is for all these things. And like I was 19, seeing it all as an employee and you know, fast forward, I ended up getting into HR because I didn't like the Fact that when you're an employee and you can't say it to someone, and then you try to say it to someone. Basically what I learned in school is that, you know, you got to play meal premiums and overtime and like these basic things.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Jessica Hart: And so I tried to share that with the business owner and they're like, nope, we don't do that here, blah, blah, blah. And so I know what it feels like to be the employee that's just like running against the wall, like, no, this is a big deal and I'm just trying to help you. And then it doesn't land anywhere. So that got me into hr.
Jonathan Mahrt: Okay.
Jessica Hart: From that experience, like I've seen what it looks like to go to the dol. I know what it's like to be in the courtroom and DOL is, oh, sorry, Department of Labor.
Jonathan Mahrt: Okay.
Jessica Hart: Like I know, I know all of.
Jonathan Mahrt: That and it's all worth it. Yeah.
Jessica Hart: And especially when you have an employee just trying to tell you to fix it.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Jessica Hart: You know, and so I got into hr. I ended up doing HR with Target, opening a lot of stores, mass expansion, succession planning, all that crazy stuff. I was recruited by Heineken when Heineken bought the Laganitas Brewing Company, went through that whole craziness of post merger M and A with them and then I ended up launching my business.
Jonathan Mahrt: Very nice. So tell us about your business then. What are you doing for folks?
Jessica Hart: I work with small to medium sized businesses. They can be scaling or turnaround type situations where I help them either implement or audit their hr. So a lot of times, you know, they grow fast and they don't know what they don't know. And then there's a lot of things kind of down the road that you got to kind of un. Melt the ball of wax is what I say. And what I do with those individuals is that a lot of these businesses don't need me full time. Right. 15 employees, 50 employees, maybe 75. Right. Like it can be a range and it's kind of auditing where you're at, getting you compliant with the things and then of moving into more of a HR business partner, like fractional head of HR role for these organizations so that we keep on a people strategy perspective as opposed to like fire drill madness. Because like they don't, they don't need someone with my skill set 100% of the time.
Jonathan Mahrt: Right.
Jessica Hart: That's reality.
Jonathan Mahrt: When do you think a company can justify having a full time HR person?
Jessica Hart: I think it depends on, on complexity first and then employee size. Second, so when I say complexity, I'm talking about do you have hourly and salaried workers? Right. Some people punch in, punch out, some people don't. Do you have multiple sites? Do you have multiple states that you're in? Do you also have people that aren't just working in an office, but you've got manufacturing, you've got a restaurant, you've got a vineyard, you've got. Right. Whatever it is. When you've got people working in different sites that way, or different physical locations, that's where it gets complex from an HR and a people perspective. And then when you go into the numbers of employees, I mean, in the state of California, you got five employees, you've got a leave option that comes into play. And businesses that have five employees, they have no idea how to handle.
Jonathan Mahrt: Sure, Right.
Jessica Hart: The leave law of California tell you that because businesses that are thousands, they hire attorneys to handle that part. You know, like, it's just not fair. So in a long, roundabout way, the other piece is this. Payroll is handled under finance. You really don't need an HR person until probably 30 to 50 employees or maybe more.
Jonathan Mahrt: Okay. Okay. And when we're saying HR person, are we. I should clarify that question. Are we talking about someone that's just like processing payroll, or we're talking like someone that's staying up to date with what's going on in HR world?
Jessica Hart: Yeah. I would say job title. Right. Would be HR generalist. Okay. I don't think that you need a specific person just running payroll. I think that you can get by with the generalist at like the 50 to 70 mark.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. I guess what I was trying to say was just the kind of person that's just doing the transactions of hr, you know, like new hire paperwork and stuff. Stuff like that.
Jessica Hart: Right. And onboarding.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah, that kind of stuff. What the distinction of what it means to have, as opposed to just like their manager doing it or the owner of the business doing that kind of stuff. You know, at what point that inflection point where you're getting someone that actually knows HR and stays up to date with it.
Jessica Hart: Yeah, that would probably. I mean, in the state of California, you want to resource either external or internal. Right. Somewhere at five plus employees. But if you're gonna hire someone just to dance in the lane of hr specifically. Right. And take that off everyone's plate, I'd say in California, somewhere around 30 or more.
Jonathan Mahrt: Okay, Okay. I think that's helpful for people to know. I mean, it's really hard as someone who comes from Helping run a family business. It is really hard to stay up to date on what's happening in the world California. It's insane. So how are you staying up to date on it? Is there just a newsletter? I'm not getting fair.
Jessica Hart: I like to say HR is like a language. It's like you got to go full immersion.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Jessica Hart: And then you just got to like, keep practicing it to stay up to date. But in reality, I pay to be a member of the Society for Human Resource Management. It's like a. It's a book of knowledge. There's like two leading, like, characters. Right. That and hrci. So I align with the SHRM module with. Which means that I pay to be a member with them. I also have access to all their resources. As an individual, I'm very interested in lobbying on the employer side. So I like to keep up to date and go to like, active legislation in Sacramento. And I like to be a part of lobby groups and interest groups to hear what are impacting different businesses so that I can hear the mess before the mess happens.
Jonathan Mahrt: Well, sometimes it still happens.
Jessica Hart: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, prime example would be the. You know, there was a Senate bill in California that was coming out about the hidden fees. Everyone was freaking out about hitting hidden fees. And the hidden fees thing was literally came out of the Taylor Swift problem with Ticketmaster.
Jonathan Mahrt: Right, right.
Jessica Hart: Because people were trying to buy tickets with Ticketmaster and then there were all these hidden fees.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. Wasn't this also affecting folks like Comcast when they like, throw a bunch of random stuff on the bottom of your bill that you weren't expecting and stuff like that?
Jessica Hart: I literally broke up with Comcast because of that damn broadcast fee. It's like it's $25. Why? Yeah, I literally have the 10 channel thing. Like, we use the website. Like, I don't know what you're talking about. Use WI fi. But yeah, so that was what it was targeted for. But it was also including restaurants and all these other things. Now, the reason why a lot of my clients freaked out about that, which is why I stayed up to date on that, is because when you talk about hidden feedback fees that included stuff on the restaurant side, like auto gratuity on tables of six or more that included things like a service charge when you rent out a banquet hall, like these things that.
Jonathan Mahrt: And that I don't like as a consumer personally.
Jessica Hart: Yeah. Which is fine. But it also, like, it didn't line. It never lines up the right way.
Jonathan Mahrt: 100. Someone always gets caught in the crossfire.
Jessica Hart: Well, like why would you have something go into effect on July 1st on a Monday?
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Jessica Hart: Why would like, have you ever worked in a business before? You don't hit people with a ton of bricks on a Monday?
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Jessica Hart: In the middle of the summer.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. That's fair. And I also wonder, it's just such an interesting thing that laws can get passed that affect all these businesses, but there's no like, notice that goes out. Right. Does every business get contacted or anything like that? You're just expected to stay up to date with what's going on.
Jessica Hart: Yeah. So for me, I'm a networking machine.
Jonathan Mahrt: I know you are.
Jessica Hart: Yes. I have to have lawyers in my phone at all times and be friendly with them that they want me to hear. You know what I mean, what's going on? Because then I can give free tips to my clients.
Jonathan Mahrt: So you're working them for information?
Jessica Hart: Always.
Jonathan Mahrt: That's good. So I want to get into two things. One is it's not often that I get a situation down and talk to an HR professional and you know, and especially someone that works with multiple businesses. And then second, I want to talk after that maybe get in a little bit into just like the journey of starting your own business because you are a relatively new business owner yourself. And that's kind of an exciting journey on the HR side of things. I mean, what, what are the common mistakes that you're seeing business, like small businesses make when it comes to HR wages?
Jessica Hart: Now you're not cut. Everyone thinks, and I'm trying. Everyone. This is, this can't. This is gonna hit everyone. Okay. Your payroll provider is not meant to pay people correctly.
Jonathan Mahrt: Interesting.
Jessica Hart: Okay, you think it is, right? It makes sense. I got a payroll provider, right? What? The ADPs, the gustos. Maybe it's gusto or gusto, I don't really remember how to pronounce it. You've got the high bobs. You've got, you know, bamboo hr. There's plenty. Plenty. Okay, Right. It doesn't matter. It has nothing to do with that brand. They are supposed to pay people. They are not supposed to pay people correctly.
Jonathan Mahrt: Okay, explain what you mean.
Jessica Hart: So they hit send on the money, right? Okay. That's it. That is their job. You as the employer are meant to set it up correctly so that it pays correctly with your city and state law. Okay, so, so for example, I can't remember, is your audience mostly California?
Jonathan Mahrt: Yes, predominantly.
Jessica Hart: Okay, so California. I'll be like super specific. California has a law that says, hey, if you work an eight hour day, by the fifth hour when it starts, not when it ends. You have to clock out for an uninterrupted 30 minute break. Okay.
Jonathan Mahrt: Right, Yep.
Jessica Hart: So if you only have a payroll solution, but you don't have a timekeeping solution, then the payroll doesn't know that you owe that person one hour of their wages because they didn't take their lunch at the right time. Because those systems aren't talking to each other.
Jonathan Mahrt: Interesting.
Jessica Hart: So as an employer, you're already out of compliance and have a wage and hour issue that is free to file with the dol. Right. Department of labor, for your employee to come and get money from you.
Jonathan Mahrt: Right.
Jessica Hart: And that compounds with interest every day, maxing out at 30 days. So it's not cheap.
Jonathan Mahrt: No, no, that's. That stuff's a big deal.
Jessica Hart: And so from an employer perspective, you think, oh, we got a payroll solution, they're gonna pay people correctly. We're good.
Jonathan Mahrt: Oh, yeah.
Jessica Hart: And then it's a gotcha.
Jonathan Mahrt: No, yeah, I see what you're saying.
Jessica Hart: Yeah.
Jonathan Mahrt: No, I, that is true that it is. Just because you're. You gotta make sure that people, people could be even punching and using a time clock correctly, but it doesn't mean that they're actually taking breaks when they're supposed to.
Jessica Hart: Right.
Jonathan Mahrt: You know, the one I've seen people get for especially is people that have to do some sort of like the way that where the time clock is located, they have to like change or do some like do some kind of thing for the business before they even punch in. And it's like, no, actually they're supposed to be punching in before they lift a finger for anything.
Jessica Hart: Yeah. I mean, there's even a court case that happened again. I nerd out on this stuff. Right.
Jonathan Mahrt: That's, that's good. I'm glad there's someone. It's just like when I go to the hospital or go to the doctor's office, I'm so glad that there's doctors because it's like, this is not for me.
Jessica Hart: Yeah. It's just. That's not for me either. I have found my calling. I will not be going to med school anytime soon. But there is, there is a lawsuit that you can Google. Right. It's with Apple. And basically there was a security thing with Apple where they would. The employees had to line up and they had to line up to go kind of like tsa, like go through TSA before you get to work. And because they couldn't clock in until going through that security thing to clock in, there was this lawsuit that said, like oh no, by the way, you need to pay them because they're standing in line. The only reason they're not working is because you put the security guards there to stop them from working.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Jessica Hart: So you need to pay them for being in the line. Like that's a real thing.
Jonathan Mahrt: It's. I mean, I kind of, I kind of get it. Yeah, I kind of get it. You know, but it's also so hard as an employer to like think of every edge case. You're not going to like, that's, that's what's really trouble about it. Even if you're the most well intentioned, you do everything with like the utmost integrity. It's just like so easy to miss some of those things.
Jessica Hart: Well, and I personally believe that like, like you said, I nerd out on these things.
Jonathan Mahrt: Right.
Jessica Hart: It's my full time job to nerd out on these things.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Jessica Hart: Okay. And I love it. Not everyone's as weird as me. Right. Like, I don't want to read these things.
Jonathan Mahrt: I would say everyone's probably equally weird just about other things.
Jessica Hart: Right. They've got other things. So like you can't be weird about two things.
Jonathan Mahrt: Exactly.
Jessica Hart: Right. So like if I know that about humans, then I also can say that it's probably not realistic for someone to be weird about their own thing, but also makes space to keep up with the HR stuff.
Jonathan Mahrt: Well, that's always what's interesting too. As someone who's more of like a business consultant, I always tell people like lots of business owners are good at the thing they do. They're not great at necessarily the business side of it. Right, right. You know, and same with the hr, like they're. If they're great at, let's just say running a landscaping business or running a restaurant or something, that the likelihood of them being good at a bunch of other things is when it comes to that takes to run your business is pretty low.
Jessica Hart: Yeah. You know, 100%.
Jonathan Mahrt: So. All right, so any other big gaps that you see for folks besides kind of the time and labor stuff, you.
Jessica Hart: Know, the obvious is handbooks. And I think that what is surprising for a lot of people is they're like, oh, well, we have out will employment. We have. Okay, but did you tell them that? Because you have to prove that you told them that. So like that should be in a handbook. That should be an offer letter that could be in something signed. Yeah, that you communicated that. Because that's, that's number one important too in terms of like handbook policy, all those changes. My rule of thumb is if it's not updated within 18 months, I don't read it. I give my clients new ones. Like, I just know it's old. It cost you way more money for me to read this thing. You should just. We just do it in the wind, scrap it, we move on, man.
Jonathan Mahrt: You have to keep updating it that frequently?
Jessica Hart: Oh, yeah. I mean, this year alone, right. Like, an example would be sick time. An example would be reproductive loss leaf, like all of these different things that.
Jonathan Mahrt: Come into play and just making sure that your handbook's covering everything that needs to be. Because it's your way of basically communicating expectations to employees.
Jessica Hart: Right. It's a, hey, this is how we do things here. But then you actually have to do the things here.
Jonathan Mahrt: You know, that's the tricky part too, right? Is that once it's there, once you tell them something, then you actually have to do what you're saying because that's also bad. You could have a great handbook and then if you're not actually doing what's in your handbook, that also causes problems.
Jessica Hart: Yeah. Just in my world, they call it inconsistencies. That's the buzzword.
Jonathan Mahrt: So. Okay, let's. I want one, one quick story. If you have one story time about like the craziest thing that you've seen from an HR perspective that you're able to share.
Jessica Hart: I don't know if I'm allowed to share.
Jonathan Mahrt: Okay, that's fine. That's fine. I wasn't sure, even if you weren't naming names or something through it, if you could or not.
Jessica Hart: I think that, I think that my company is so new that maybe in a year we can have stories.
Jonathan Mahrt: Fair enough. Or maybe from previous. Previous. Anyway, I'm not pushing you for it, so it's fine. Well, let's, let's talk about your new company then.
Jessica Hart: Yeah.
Jonathan Mahrt: Okay. And so how's that? How's that? What inspired you to start, start your business first off? To go from living the corporate life saying, I want to do my own.
Jessica Hart: Thing, you know, it's kind of two lanes. Right. Like I felt like in post merger M and A. Right. Like, you know that there are redundancies 100%. Anyone that tells me that a business buys another business and doesn't do a layoff is lying.
Jonathan Mahrt: Sure.
Jessica Hart: Right. You can't guarantee that. You just can't because you just acquired a business that has all the people doing similar things or whatever. Right. Than what you have. And that's not a shot fired. That's just reality. And so I Think that part of it in my brain was I loved where I was at, adored it like nothing but positive things to say. And at the same time I could know that we just kept laying people off and cutting teams and getting smaller. And at the same time, there's only a part in post merger M and A where the strategy moves too. Right. So you're, you're gonna go from having HR strategy on site to it going to the headquarters? Well, in my experience, like I, I knew I don't want to move to that headquarters.
Jonathan Mahrt: Sure.
Jessica Hart: Young child, like, my parents are close in town. They get to be very involved in my, my son's life. That just wasn't part of it. So that kind of helps me from a mental perspective. But also when I was trying to find people with my experience to come and work where I was working, you couldn't. We were poaching talent from cannabis often to get into the alcohol industry because it's similar in nature of just wildness. Right. And so with that, I also knew that there was a spot in the market for my services for businesses that didn't have full time hr.
Jonathan Mahrt: Okay.
Jessica Hart: So it was kind of a. We got to figure it out while also like, you know, living like, you know, just kind of bizarre. I mean, looking back, I would not launch a business in Q4 ever.
Jonathan Mahrt: Sure.
Jessica Hart: Probably not a good idea. And I say that because a lot of businesses as you know. Right. You start pulling back spending. What do we need to do to meet at year end, numbers, all of that kind of stuff. Right.
Jonathan Mahrt: Plus the. Plus you throw in the holidays and it's just like, it's not a priority to go spend money on consultants.
Jessica Hart: Right, Right. But it was really exciting because also at the same time, I called one person in my phone, like literally the day that I was like, all right, this is gonna happen. And within three days they were like, all right, this is what the board has approved you for. I didn't even have my costing structure set up. Like, I had no idea. I knew that because we worked together in the past that, that it would work out. Right. They knew what I could do.
Jonathan Mahrt: Sure.
Jessica Hart: I didn't have a pitch. I didn't have a contract, I didn't have a business account. Like, I had none of these things. I was just like, this is what we're gonna do. And then they're like, great, I can spend X. You ready? Sure.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that comes down to like fake it till you make it. Not that you don't have the skills, but also I've never done this, this thing in this way before. And I'm just figuring, I'm gonna. I guess I'm figuring it out now.
Jessica Hart: Right. And what was really cool about it is it's someone that I obviously worked with in the past, supported in the past. So they're like, I need you to do org design. I need you to figure out what's going on in the structure. It's a business, it's fourth generation that, you know, got people, XYZ titles that just don't make sense. And I just want you to talk to the team and understand from an OD perspective what you can do.
Jonathan Mahrt: I'm assuming that's organizational design.
Jessica Hart: Yes. Me and my jargon.
Jonathan Mahrt: Everything shorthand for the people.
Jessica Hart: For the people.
Jonathan Mahrt: For the people.
Jessica Hart: Yes. And so that was fun because it was also 300 plus employee organization. So it wasn't like a no go, you know, like a nobody client.
Jonathan Mahrt: Right.
Jessica Hart: And so that really stoked my, like, confidence. Right.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. Nice anchor. Kind of an anchor client right off, right off the bat.
Jessica Hart: That's awesome. Yeah.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. So how have you. So you're going out. You were lucky to have kind of a client out of the gate. How have you gone about growing your business in the, in the, in the intervening time?
Jessica Hart: Yeah. I am a huge advocate for just talking to people. And so I just went into my LinkedIn, I'm not even joking, and I was like, all right, who, what, what industry do I want to work on? Who do I want to support? I really feel like, like managing people is hard as it is. And then throw alcohol into the mix. Right. Just freaking disaster.
Jonathan Mahrt: Are alcohol companies and restaurants, I assume there's a lot of drinking happening at.
Jessica Hart: Those places all the time and they're gonna tell you they don't. Yes, they do. And the thing is, is it a drink that you have then, like, for example, you can have a bar. Right. Well, if you have a patron that's a regular at the bar, do you think your bartender is ringing him up for every single drink? Are they? I don't know.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Jessica Hart: Oh, but they're getting a good tip, so I don't know. Right. That's just an example. Another example would be, oh, are they gonna take a shot with them? Maybe. Are they buddies now? Probably. Right. They've been getting tips for months.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting.
Jessica Hart: Right. I'm thinking of the extremes for the point of the illustration. But there's that. There's the fact that when you manufacture beer, you test it in four different spots before it Goes right. You have to make sure that it's okay in different sections. So you've got people that are technically supposed to have a sip, right? Sure, sip. But the. But the sample glass is a 4 ouncer, but they're supposed to have a sip. You see what I mean? So it's, it's just an interesting space to play. And, you know, we have to remember that alcoholism is a disability in all 50 states.
Jonathan Mahrt: Right.
Jessica Hart: Did you make the disability? I don't know. Right. There's a lot of interesting things and ways to cut that pie.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah, that's interesting. But all things have never considered. Yeah, that's very interesting. Yeah.
Jessica Hart: So to answer your question, I was like, okay, this, at least I know it's a high risk, high reward business. It's something that I directly am passionate about. I love how different varietals come out for wine. I love the different tastings of beer. I love the people in the industry. So many personalities. Right. When you get into restaurants and it's just the common thread was that there was alcohol somewhere in the workplace for me. And so then I went to my LinkedIn to answer a question and was like, all right, who works at a brewery? Literally typed in brewery.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Jessica Hart: And would just message people the same message. I'm not even, like gonna lie. It's hysterical. I was just like, hey, I've launched my new thing. Would love to catch up with you. You want to do a 30 minute coffee chat this week or next? Just boom. I would sit there, I'd set an alarm for 30 minutes and just freaking hammering it out. Okay. And then I'd walk the dog. Then I'd come back and I'd have responses. And it didn't matter that I didn't have 50 responses if I sent 50 messages.
Jonathan Mahrt: Right.
Jessica Hart: It mattered that I had two. And I got so amped.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Jessica Hart: And I just kept doing that over and over and over again. And then I would track the relationships and I would follow up with them and see how they were doing and start commenting on their LinkedIn. And it was just like staying in my current wheelhouse. And then from there, I've been able to start going to different networking groups and talking about what I'm doing and what I also recommend. When you're doing this kind of like hustle mode of just so many conversations, you start realizing how to pitch yourself to people that you're not pitching to. Right, right. They weren't decision makers. They weren't people that were going to be clients. They were just people that I Knew that worked in the industry that I wanted to talk to.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Jessica Hart: And then organically, I built my whole business on referrals. And it's been great so far. But one of my key clients that I have right now literally came from someone that I met on. Randomly on a different networking website that I talked with them about doing HR for them. And then they decided to not hire people, so they didn't need the HR support. But then they referred me into their clients, said, wow, all right. We didn't even work together. You know what I mean? Like, it's just.
Jonathan Mahrt: Well, that.
Jessica Hart: That is.
Jonathan Mahrt: That is the power I found of, like, having conversations and networking and getting to know people is that referrals typically often come from places you least expect. Right. And. And there's something like you may be going to talk to someone that you think can't offer you anything but a. Maybe you. When you have a conversation with them, they like you. You establish credibility with them. And actually they do have something you could help with or they know someone that would be that. That you could work with. And you just never know about those things. That's why it's so critical to just get out and talk to people a lot.
Jessica Hart: Yeah. And I think that. So I have these post IT notes on my desk.
Jonathan Mahrt: And when you're a post IT note person.
Jessica Hart: I am. And they're all these different colors and they kind of like, fan up.
Jonathan Mahrt: Do the colors mean anything?
Jessica Hart: No.
Jonathan Mahrt: Okay.
Jessica Hart: Absolutely no rhyme or reason with the colors. Okay.
Jonathan Mahrt: I just had to gauge how, you know, where the level of, like, insanity was with the post IT notes.
Jessica Hart: It's probably high. But one of my post IT notes says givers get. And that's it. Very simple.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica Hart: Am I gonna give them my time? Am I going to talk about something that they didn't even know about and then they're gonna leave with something educational? Like, for me, it's. I know that I add value to whatever business I support.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Jessica Hart: But I will not be the person that's like, knocking on your door and this crazy salesperson. No, no, no. Because also, HR is not like that. It takes a long time. And I. And that's where I've also been able to kind of sit in the business. Right. Of building it is that I'm asking people to show me their skeletons. Talk to me about their people. Trust me. With everyone's socials.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica Hart: You don't just jump in and get access like that. You know, you gotta be okay with. With the time and the dance.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. I'M finding that in my business, too, that, like, in order for me to help people, they have to be vulnerable about, like, what's wrong with their business, you know, and, and then be willing to change. And those things can both be very difficult, especially when you start talking about finances and if you're trying to make an improvement and, like, then you have to be vulnerable about. Yeah, this is how much I make on this. This is how much this thing cost me. This is what I'm spending. But. And so it takes time to build a trust relationship with them, for sure.
Jessica Hart: Which is why I dig so deep into, like, current people that I know. Because if current people know me, they already know, like, trust me, they already already there. So then they can refer me in to whomever has that problem. And then I have an instant.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah, yeah, that's great. That's great insight. That's also been the most productive avenue for me for referrals as well. It's people I knew or people I knew working with them, or people I knew recommending me to someone. Because it's the. I mean, if you've. There's a whole, you know, I'm in bni, which is the networking group, and they have the, they call it the VCP process, which is visibility, credibility. And then I think it's. Then I think it's profitability. But basically you have to pick up. I can't remember what the P stands for, but basically you become visible to someone, right? That's just getting out and talking to people. That's sending a thousand LinkedIn messages. And then there's the credibility. As you work on the relationship, you become credible with them. And then they want us after. At the end, they want to send you business.
Jessica Hart: Yeah, well. And I think also it's like, even when I meet new people, I try to add them to LinkedIn right away because I know I post three to five times a week on LinkedIn.
Jonathan Mahrt: You do. You are probably outside of, like, public figures, you're probably the most active person I have on LinkedIn, which is great. Which is great. I. You are my goal.
Jessica Hart: Well, thank you.
Jonathan Mahrt: You're welcome.
Jessica Hart: I don't know if that means. Does that mean insanity high?
Jonathan Mahrt: No, no, I think, I think. No, that, that's just like, that's good. You're working it the way you should. I think it's great.
Jessica Hart: I try to be very specific on what I share, so I appreciate that feedback. I just think that that way, from a credibility standpoint, I am using a system and a software. LinkedIn that they already use. Right. And they can decide to follow me or not, hide me or not. It's not gonna stop my confidence. Cause I have no idea it's true. So I'm gonna keep going.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah, yeah.
Jessica Hart: And what it helps with is that you start posting things that people didn't think about. Right. They're learning, whatever. And it builds credibility for that referral when they hear that specific thing down the road.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Jessica Hart: Like, I'm not here to make a commission on a quick sale and handbook flip.
Jonathan Mahrt: Right.
Jessica Hart: You know?
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. I think that's the biggest thing when people starting out their businesses don't realize it's like. And I kind of. I knew that going into it, but even I caught myself a few times, like, don't go into relationships or meeting new people, trying to make a sale, because that's not, you know, talking about going to that visibility and then credibility process. That's not how you build credibility. Because immediately people just aren't gonna want.
Jessica Hart: Anything to do with it. Right.
Jonathan Mahrt: You know, so I went back and looked at some of my old emails when I was first sending them, and I was way too sales pitchy, you know, instead of just, hey, I'd like to connect and learn about you and your business, you know, it was more like, hey, these are the things I can do and all that kind of stuff. And that, you know that immediately then people like, oh, he wants to. Definitely wants to sell me something.
Jessica Hart: Yeah.
Jonathan Mahrt: You know, and so I feel like I've had more success when it's just been about building a relationship with people.
Jessica Hart: Fair.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. So what's. We are getting close to the end of our time, but I want to ask you a couple more questions about your business real quick. One is, what has been, like, the. What's been your biggest challenge as you've been starting your business?
Jessica Hart: There's an overwhelming amount of software systems and solutions out there, and it's like analysis paralysis.
Jonathan Mahrt: Do you know who you should talk to?
Jessica Hart: Who?
Jonathan Mahrt: Me. I might be able to help you with that.
Jessica Hart: Fair. But it's just, it's bonkers. Right. And I don't know if it's because we live right by Silicon Valley and it's, you know, so maybe I'm. I'm part of their, like, recruitment test portal. Right.
Jonathan Mahrt: They got you sucked in.
Jessica Hart: Yeah. But it's like, oh, my God, another sponsored post about whatever.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that is challenging. And actually I see a lot of small business owners run into that. Like, I was just telling you before the meeting, working with someone to like select some shop management software. And they're like A, they're not technical. Right. They're really good at running their shop and doing the work and they have great reviews and all that kind of stuff. But. And then B, they just don't have the time.
Jessica Hart: Right, right.
Jonathan Mahrt: They're like, I have no idea where to start.
Jessica Hart: Why should I shop this? Yeah, why should I pretend that's how my clients feel when they have me vet their workers comp. Or have me vet their benefits broker or like whomever. It's just like you don't know what questions to ask.
Jonathan Mahrt: That's exactly. You don't know what questions to ask. You don't know if they're, if they're, you know, the sales person is just feeding you a bunch of crap, you know, like all these kinds of things. You don't know if that's going to be as good as you think it is. And it just takes, it's just like a lot of work to.
Jessica Hart: The used car salesman has come to everything.
Jonathan Mahrt: Oh, it is bad. I have a rule of thumb that if, if, if a software company is doing a hard sell to me, I just don't even. I'm not going to use them because it's just like, it's a cultural thing. I don't want to be it. I don't want to give money to someone that is just like trying so hard to sell me. They call every single day, right. They send you 5,000 emails. They only want to give you information. If you get on a call with them and do a demo with them, I'm like, oh my God.
Jessica Hart: But you know what that tells me? They have zero clients. They have way too much time on their hands.
Jonathan Mahrt: That could, that could, that absolutely could be true. But it's, but it's incentivized because they just, the those sales guys for software companies just throw them out and say, hey, you go, go build a book of business. You just gotta grind and like talk to all these people. And it's just, I mean, on their end, it's probably a brutal thing to do. And I would never want to be a software salesperson.
Jessica Hart: Not a fan.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah, not at all. So what's like, what's been the best thing about starting your own business?
Jessica Hart: The best thing is the flexibility that you know. And what I mean by that is. Cause I have a little one. Right? Okay, well, so I am a morning person. I get up at 4:45 every day. I am downstairs in my house, like ready to roll, coffee is made, 5:30 okay. Wow.
Jonathan Mahrt: What time are you going to bed? I'm curious.
Jessica Hart: 8:39. Somewhere in that window.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah, that's the only way you can do that and be successful. Unless you're insane or can I say that on you?
Jessica Hart: I mean I don't. Sure. But it's like. Like who? You have to sleep. Yeah. So with that it's like I work in the industry so like there's all sorts of things that come up. Anyone that's worked in restaurants will understand what I mean by that. But back to what I was talking about is that, you know, I'm up 4:45, 5:30, I've got the coffee, I am checking my email by 6, I respond to all of my clients or I'm working on a project by six. Between that time then I'm in the gym six to seven, always in the gym. And then I go into mom mode. And so it's really cool because I can respond to people's emails whenever I want to. I get to have that morning with my son, I get him to preschool and then I get to jump into client mode again. Right. If I want to. Like I work until probably 4:00 or so, maybe 4:30 every day and then I get to pick up my son from preschool and then we get to go into family time again.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Jessica Hart: Where when I was in corporate world I was still doing those things except I would pick him up, he would go home, my husband would tag in and then I'd go back to my email until at least 6, 6:30. Or my son was at my parents house so I could work until 66 30. I also was on a plane all the time back and forth to Chicago all the time.
Jonathan Mahrt: Really?
Jessica Hart: Yep. And it's just like, like we only sleep trained our son so hard so that he'd be predictable so that I could leave confidently knowing these things. So flexibility.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah, no, that's great. That is a great point. I do see sometimes that people do get trapped in their business though. So you definitely have to be intentional about setting those boundaries and those constraints. For sure. Well, let's get to the bonus questions because we are running to the end of time. And the first one I always like to ask people is what's a book or books that you recommend or give the most to people?
Jessica Hart: Hunter, gather parent.
Jonathan Mahrt: All right, what is that about? Assume it's about parenting.
Jessica Hart: Yeah, it's about parenting. But it's a woman that lives in San Francisco that took her two year old into all these ancient areas so like she goes into Mexico. She goes into Antarctica. She lives with people in Africa, like these tribes. Right. And she talks about how when you see their children, they're just super helpful. And why are they helpful? Like, she goes on a hunt with her child and like you, she walks through this whole process of, like, when you allow risky play and you allow kids to play with you, they become contributing members of society with you in the house. An example that she gave that has worked really well with my kid, which is why I give this book, is that, like, if you're doing the dishes and your son or daughter comes into the. Into the kitchen and you're like, get out of the kitchen. I need to do dishes. Your kid's never going to ask you to help with the dishes. Your kid's never going to help the dishes because you just told them they're not allowed in there.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Jessica Hart: So then they're going to grow up and be a kid that never helps with the dishes. Yeah, you did that.
Jonathan Mahrt: It's true.
Jessica Hart: The book is fascinating and it's based in, like, these very ancient principles that I'll leave you with the fact of, like, you and I talk to our parents and our parents are like, back in my day, it was different and we parented like this and all these things. Well, fair. Well, we have no idea how effed up all the generations are from it because we change every generation on how we parent. And so taking it into 20,000 year, you know, this is how they parent pieces. It's kind of cool.
Jonathan Mahrt: That's interesting. I'm gonna have to check out that book. Just based on your anecdote, I do find that it is very helpful to like, encourage. Not. My daughter's a little young, but my son, who's around the same age as yours is when he wants to help. Yeah. Let's figure out how you can help and do something.
Jessica Hart: Yeah.
Jonathan Mahrt: You know, because they want to be there and engaged and he ends up being like, way more helpful. And when we do that. So that's a. That's a great. That's a great point. I'll have to check that out.
Jessica Hart: Yeah.
Jonathan Mahrt: The other thing I like to ask people is if you give people one piece of advice on a billboard over the freeway, what would it be?
Jessica Hart: Givers get 100%.
Jonathan Mahrt: Love it. Love it. So what does that mean for you?
Jessica Hart: That means that, you know, you can't go into anything personal, professional. Right. And expect anything. You need to go in with a heart of, how can I give this person something? Is it knowledge? Right. Is it helping them with something. What can you. What can you do? It's not giving people money every single day. Right. Like, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying go out here and start cutting checks.
Jonathan Mahrt: Right.
Jessica Hart: But what can you do for someone? Because overall, someday is going to happen that you will have something where you get in return. I hope I don't get hit by a bus.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Jessica Hart: But, like, if something happens, there's gonna be a day where someone's gonna go, oh, you know, Jessica was super sweet to me. I'm gonna go hang out with her son for a little bit. You know what I mean? Like, something like that. You have to know that in your business, you give people other things. I mean, I give people free policies all the time. They'll ask me free advice. I don't bill them for it.
Jonathan Mahrt: Right.
Jessica Hart: You took 10 minutes of my life. I will help you. Why? Because you're asking the right question.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Jessica Hart: You're not coming to take advantage of me. You know what I mean? Like, we need to stop thinking like, oh, they just want us for this. No.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. Or just trying to gatekeep or paywall everything.
Jessica Hart: Paywall everything. I can't stand when I, like, see an article I want to read and then I can't read it. The clickbait life is not for me.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah, that's fair. No, that's really good advice. And I think that's. I 100% agree with that. That's been my experience as well. Is like trying. Trying to, like, if you. If you give and you put things out there, then people are going to go to you because you're just building. You're building trust and credibility with them. Right. And so they're going to remember that in different ways and different, you know, different avenues in life, whether it's personal or business. Well, thank you so much. It's been wonderful having you on. What would you like to. Anything you would like to plug.
Jessica Hart: Plug.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Jessica Hart: So trendy.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Jessica Hart: Plugging. Can you say it like that? Plug.
Jonathan Mahrt: You know, I'm not. I'm not. I don't know if I'm online enough to know the best way.
Jessica Hart: Well, My website is jessicahart h a r t consulting.com of Hart Consulting. We have a bunch of stuff on there where I'm featured in different articles and different collaboration tools with different industry partners that people can go check out. I have a blog on there that I joke that it's like the stuff that you didn't learn in school. School from an HR perspective. And I share that on my LinkedIn.
Jonathan Mahrt: You're a great follow on LinkedIn, so look her up and follow her. A lot of good stuff on there. I am once again with Flywheel Consulting. You can find me at flywheelconsulting co and on LinkedIn, but I'm not as interesting as Jessica is. Thank you everyone, for listening. Follow us wherever podcasts are found, and we'll see you again next week.