Think about the problem and ask good questions
Summary
In this episode, I sit down with Ramsay Brown, a Commercial Relationship Manager at a local community bank. We dive into Ramsay's fascinating career journey, from his MBA days to his current role where he thrives on helping businesses secure the financing they need to grow. Ramsay shares valuable insights into the banking industry's unique aspects, the importance of relationship management, and the delicate balance between work and personal life. Don't miss out on this engaging conversation packed with practical advice and personal anecdotes.
Topics
- Introduction to Ramsay Brown and his role at the bank
- Ramsay's career path and education background
- The rewarding aspects of working with clients and their businesses
- Differences between community banks and large financial institutions
- The challenges of regulatory audits in banking
- Importance of mentorship and asking questions in career growth
- Work-life balance and maintaining personal relationships
- Ramsay's daily routines and productivity tips
- Advice to younger self: prioritize personal life over work
- Ramsay's favorite books and recommendations
Links & Resources
- Pacific Coast Banker School
- A Promised Land
- Previous On the Flywheel book recommendations
- Jonathan Mahrt - LinkedIn, Instagram, Website
Thank you for listening
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of On the Flywheel! If you enjoyed our discussion with Ramsay Brown, please rate, follow, share, and review our podcast. Your support helps us reach more listeners and continue bringing you insightful conversations every week. See you next Sunday!
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Jonathan Mahrt: Hello, and welcome to on the Flywheel, episode five. I am your host, Jonathan Mart of Flywheel Consulting. And today we have with us Ramsey Brown, who is a commercial relationship manager at a local community bank. Thanks for being on the podcast today, Ramsay.
Ramsay Brown: Absolutely, yeah. Happy to join you.
Jonathan Mahrt: So let's just jump right into things. Can you start out by talking about your career path, maybe a little bit about your education, how you got to where you are today?
Ramsay Brown: Sure. Yeah. So my title is not the most clear in terms of what I do. So as commercial relationship manager, I'm essentially a lender at a local community bank. So I manage borrowing relationships for the bank, and the path that I took to get there really kind of dates back to my MBA program. I finished an undergrad in business, general business management degree, back in 2008, which was a wonderful time to coming out with a general business degree. So I went back to school and did my MBA. And during that MBA program, I took a financial analysis course that was more on public companies. But nonetheless, you know, it made a lot of sense to me, and I looked around the room and it made more sense to me than other smart people in the room. And so I thought, well, where at work? What can I do? Where I just get to go look at business financials all day? And so that led me to banking, and I basically been there ever since. So coming up on 15 years, I've been in banking.
Jonathan Mahrt: Wow, you're getting old.
Ramsay Brown: And, yeah, I've been in a lot of different roles in lending through my career and learned a lot. Been really good.
Jonathan Mahrt: That's awesome. I think that was a lot of my motivation coming out of school, too, in terms of getting to see a lot of different businesses and just enjoying the process of learning about other people's businesses and how they run. That's why I went to work for Ernst and Young. Doing kind of consulting and auditing stuff is just because you get to work on cool projects at cool companies that you wouldn't otherwise have access to and get exposure to stuff. So that's neat. And I guess that's probably the same, right? Because you're getting to talk to people about the intimate details of their business when you're helping them figure out financing and stuff.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah. Yeah, that's, you know, still, that's one of the main reasons I'm still here is I really enjoy that. I enjoy talking to clients and people about, you know, a building they want to buy or a business that they're trying to expand or equipment that they need to, you know, take their take their production to the next level, whatever it might be. I mean, you just be part of some really fun projects for clients.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah, that's really cool. And so it's the relationship part of it and getting to see people's business, that kind of keeps you in it.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah, yeah. And that's, you know, my, you know, the. Our community, you know, my community bank background is really about, you know, being a single point of contact for anything they need in lending. And so, you know, having those multi year, sometimes multi decade now relationships with people, you know, seeing their business grow and, you know, change and evolve with their industry and maybe they find a new niche that becomes the whole business at some point in the future. It can be pretty amazing.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. You got to go on the journey with them. That's kind of. That's kind of neat. So have you always worked for community banks, then?
Ramsay Brown: Yeah, essentially. I spent a little bit of time with a big bank just as a teller way back when, but, yeah, community banks pretty much the entire.
Jonathan Mahrt: And why? Why community banks over some of the bigger financial institutions?
Ramsay Brown: Well, I mean, community banks, you know, for me personally, you know, the bank I work for really supports the local community, and that's important to me as a person. So that's always kind of been, you know, a big part of where, you know, why I chose where I work. But then also on top of that, you know, the larger banks, they're outsourcing all the underwriting, all the other stuff to large farm kind of outfits in the midwest and other places. So, you know, the decision making isn't heat local anymore. And so a lot of that kind of stuff, and it wasn't nearly that bad, you know, when I first started.
Jonathan Mahrt: As you were coming up.
Ramsay Brown: But, I mean, the more those banks have consolidated and, you know, their processes change, you know, the farther and farther away the decision making really gets.
Jonathan Mahrt: And that's tough. I would have a hard time. Like, I personally, as someone who's, like, you know, helped run a family business and has now started my own business, I would not want to be having financial relationships with these big companies that, like, don't know me from a hole in the wall. Like, I can't, if I'm having an issue, I can't go, like, Chase Ramsey down and say, hey, like, what's going on here? What's the problem? You know?
Ramsay Brown: So that's a big part of it. I mean, yeah, once, you know, and those, those big banks, you really got to be big company to really get that kind of attention. So for medium sized businesses, you know, local family owned businesses, you just don't get the treatment. It's just a 1800 number kind of a thing. And so, you know, the touch really isn't there.
Jonathan Mahrt: Well, I think that. I think that segues really well into just talking about kind of your overall professional life. And you may have already answered this, but I like to ask everyone what's the best part and the worst part about what you do?
Ramsay Brown: Yeah, I mean, we definitely talked about the best part. I mean, it's really just working directly with clients, getting to know them, getting to know their business and being part of their, you know, their path really, as a hopefully successful business, I mean, that's. That's really rewarding. I think the hardest part of my job is banking is a pretty heavily regulated industry. So we are constantly being audited. Like, absolutely. Like basically every other month. Pretty much, yeah. You're being audited by somebody, either. Internal auditors, the FDIC, the. The state auditors. And so, you know, that is just. It's a lot of work. It's good. Like, we need to do it. It's part of keeping banks safe, but it's definitely a distraction that takes away from it.
Jonathan Mahrt: That's always the tough part is like, because we experienced that in my family business with, you know, in agriculture, is that audits are important. It helps make sure that everyone's following the rules and a similar set of standards and stuff, but it's such a distraction from the work that needs to get done. Right. I could say that like, 90% of the stuff that we have to, like, the ducks we have to have in a row are things that we like and that we're forced to document and have processes and stuff. All things we had to do regardless. We were already doing, like, just things you need to do to run your business well, but you're just, like, forced to do, like, all this extra busy work just to be able to prove to an auditor you're actually doing it.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah, that really is it. You know, the documentation side and gathering all the information that they're going to want to look at, you know, so that it's there when they show up and they can go through it and making sure it's all clear so that they don't come up with random questions just because they were missing something.
Jonathan Mahrt: Right.
Ramsay Brown: So, you know, but again, you know, banking had issues. You know, part of the reason 2008 happened, you know, I decided to go back and do an MBA, was. Yeah, there was kind of wild stuff that was being done in a section that was really a particular section of banking. Right. It was all mortgages, and it was, we don't have to go back down that rabbit hole.
Jonathan Mahrt: But so was your MBA just kind of like, hey, I need a little bit more time for things to, like, correct and pretty much add a few letters after my name.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah, I mean, that was the main thing. I didn't have a plan when I finished my degree. And obviously with the. The overall kind of job market being in a not great space, I had the ability to go back and do an MBA pretty quickly. I actually did it in 18 months because I just wanted to get through.
Jonathan Mahrt: The power through it.
Ramsay Brown: And so, yeah, you know, I had the ability, and any NBA person I'd ever talked to talked about, like, you know, they would go back to school and, like, do it at night or, you know, when they were full time working and had a family. And I was like, well, if I can do it, if I can sneak it in now, might help me down the line. And it definitely has.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah, no, that's good. My thing about, I've never gotten an MBA, but I graduated in 2011, and so I came into, like, things were, like, starting to, like, had started picking back up. And, like, there was plenty of. Plenty of jobs. Like, there wasn't so much of an issue, but that was, like, the discussions where, like, just a few years ago, no one could find a job coming out of school. You know, I think. I think, to me, MBAs are like, I think I definitely see the strongest value from them is after you've been working for a moment. And then, because when I was considering it, I was researching it and saying, like, should I do it or should I not? A lot of people were doing it. We're doing it because almost for the network, right. It's like a way to kind of, like, increase your network kind of level up substantially. It's not always as much about what you learn in it, especially if you've already had a business degree. Right. But if you're, like, completely, if you were an engineer and now you're getting MBA, that's kind of a different conversation.
Ramsay Brown: But, yeah, something that I'm going to actually be starting in the fall is basically an MBA in banking called Pacific Coast Banker school. And again, similarly, there's a lot of work that goes into it, but the network you get because it's all bankers and all high level, you know, you're really learning how to run a bank, you know, soup to nuts in that program, but it's all bankers, all learning together. And the network is, you know, super worthwhile lifelong. So.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly, exactly it for anyone considering an MBA. Okay. Not that I have one yet. At this point, I probably won't do it just because lifetime.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah, kids and everything and, you know, nbas, depending on where you see yourself being, you know, it's in the corporate ladder or wherever else, you know, the skills can be useful, but, you know, there's, you know, college in general, you know, depending on where you actually want to take it, it might not have the RoI that you would think.
Jonathan Mahrt: Well, that was kind of my ultimate conclusion was like, unless I was going to lean heavily into, like, corporate life or trying to get, like, a job at a much bigger company than I wasn't so worth it because it's expensive, too. I mean, even if you're going, it's not as bad if you're going to a place like Sonoma State, but the time commitment. Yeah, it was just going to be.
Ramsay Brown: A lot with family life.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. So let's get back on track here. You've been doing what you do for a long time. You've clearly been successful at it. So what do you think makes you different versus the other guy? Do you think there's any kind of key to your long term success?
Ramsay Brown: I think initially, the way my head works around business balance sheets and income statements and my ability to just see what's happening, it's kind of hard to explain, I guess, but it's not a skill that a lot of people necessarily innately have. It can certainly be learned, and I've learned a lot more beyond that. That was the big thing that really got me going in it, and it's still very useful today. But as you've progressed in your career, I spend less time really down in the numbers. And so just being proactive and really thinking all the way through either the problem or the project and getting to the finish line and being able to find the okay, this might be a hurdle that might not work. This could cause us problems down the line. And kind of having all those factors identified is really what helps me, you know, get through whatever it is, the loan request, you know, smoothly. And I think that is something that really has helped me from both a customer service standpoint. I mean, you know, clients want the project to move, the loan to get done, you know, without a lot of headache. I mean, that's a bunch of back.
Jonathan Mahrt: And forth and stuff.
Ramsay Brown: They're busy people, you know, and so the easier I can make it on them by. Okay, let's have a good conversation up front. I'll figure out all the bits and pieces that we're gonna need, get it all done in one lump sum, and then they can basically, you know, be hands off and be like, all right, when are we gonna be signing loan documents? I know that that's something that busy business owners.
Jonathan Mahrt: So if we were to summarize that, is it like your ability to kind of grok a difficult problem and, like, see the roadblocks and then deal with them from that point?
Ramsay Brown: Yeah. I think that the experience of being in this business for a long time, I know what is possible, what's not possible, what is challenging to do, what is less challenging to get accomplished. And so just having those kind of guiding decision making things upfront so that you don't get down the line and hit a dead end and be like, okay, we gotta back up and go this way. Now, that's really important to getting things through the finish line.
Jonathan Mahrt: So then this might be related to that. What do you think then that a lot of people that are just starting out or perhaps less successful at what you do get wrong.
Ramsay Brown: You know, experience helps because you see where problems happen when you come up with a.
Jonathan Mahrt: You're not going to get caught off guard by them as much.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah. But, you know, being that proactive, kind of. Okay, like, let's talk to an experienced person. Hey, you know, banks have, you know, there's multiple lenders in my bank. I'm not the best with certain things, and they have a lot of experience in that particular segment. Like, say, construction loans, right? I've done plenty of construction loans, but they're not what I do every day. And we have construction lenders in the bank. That's pretty much all they do. And so their wealth of knowledge in that particular segment, you know, trying to leverage that. If I, if I, you know, have a project that I'm looking at and it's got some weird facets, I'll absolutely tap on them and be like, hey, I'm seeing this. And so I think when you start out, talk as much as you can talk through things with somebody senior. I mean, most of my career, I've been extremely lucky in terms of being surrounded by very smart, experienced people, good.
Jonathan Mahrt: Mentors along the way.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah. And make me making a conscious decision to really try and extract as much knowledge as I can from those people has really been instrumental in getting me to where I am.
Jonathan Mahrt: So maybe, maybe it's then, like, don't be afraid to ask questions.
Ramsay Brown: That's how you learn you have to ask questions.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Ramsay Brown: And so, yeah. I mean, you don't. If you're green in any industry, you don't want to pretend like you know what you're doing.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. When you don't fake it till you make it isn't always the right advice, especially when it comes to money.
Ramsay Brown: Definitely not. And, you know, even in pretty much any kind of professional services kind of business, if you really don't know what you're doing, you can get down the line and have it really blow up on you. That's what you don't want. It's okay if you say, hey, I need to take a step back and ask some questions and figure this out. That five minute or one day pause for you to go do some fact finding will always be better than getting 1524 or five weeks into a process and have it totally go off the rails. Cause then usually that relationship is damaged.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. Cause you're like, oh, you were coming across as so professional and, like, you knew what was going on, and then most of the time, people are gonna end up being blindsided by. Your customer's gonna be blindsided by whatever the change is in the situation.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah. Or if you can't get accomplished what you thought you could, I mean, then. Yeah.
Jonathan Mahrt: Then you're in overselling, under delivering territory. Yeah. Yeah. I think what's interesting there, what came to mind is not just the, like, asking good questions and not being afraid to ask questions. Cause I do think that's something that a lot of people struggle with in all walks of life, in all levels of experience, but also, like, something that I. Early in my career that I had to figure out was, like, knowing what you don't know and using that as a. As a platform to ask questions.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah. Yeah. Because, I mean, like I said, even now, like, I've been doing this a long time. There's definitely stuff I don't know.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Ramsay Brown: And that's okay. Like, you know, and having the humility. Humility as a person, as a professional. Like, look, I don't have all the answers, and.
Jonathan Mahrt: Right.
Ramsay Brown: And, you know, there's stuff that I have not done or seen, and if you come across something that's unique and, you know, take the. Take the time. Be open with your client about, like, hey, look, I haven't. I haven't done one of those in a long time, or I've only done one of those, and it was a little bit rough. I'm gonna leverage a co worker of mine to make sure we do this right.
Jonathan Mahrt: Right. And I think that comes across, too. Like, I think it actually, even if you say you don't know something, assuming you're not coming across as, like, just a complete idiot or, like, completely not knowing what you're talking about, I think that that does inspire confidence in people. They're like, you know what? I'm not exactly sure about that, but let me go ask someone that does know. I have the resources to get you an answer. No problem.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah. Sometimes it's easier to soften it a little bit and be like, I've done something similar to that, but I haven't done that many of them, so let me go ask. Because then, if nothing else, you're virtually virtuous, signaling or whatever, that you've experience something tangentially nearby.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Ramsay Brown: And so, you know, they know that you're not totally out of your depth, but that's great. You're going to ask the important questions that you need to ask to make sure it goes well.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. You're saying, hey, like, yeah, I haven't done exactly this, but I have the experience and the network to be able to figure this out. No problem for you. Yeah, yeah, no, that's great. I think that's something I'm trying to be mindful of as I build my business is, you know, there's. Is being straightforward with people about the things that I definitely can help with being clear on the things. Like, yeah, that's not really my area. And then kind of the in between is like, yeah, I don't have experience with that, but, yeah, exactly that. But I've done things that are related to that a bunch. I can absolutely figure this out for you. No problem. You know, and. And trying to ride that line because that's what I'm trying to be really mindful of, not, yeah. Just like the over promise and under deliver thing and managing expectations and not saying, hey, yeah, I can do everything for you, you, I'm gonna change your life.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah.
Jonathan Mahrt: You know.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah. And that's, you know, you really. You can never be everything to everyone.
Jonathan Mahrt: Exactly.
Ramsay Brown: It's not a thing. And so knowing where you're good, where you execute well, you know, maybe go out of that box a little bit here and there, but do your best to really stay in, doing what you do best.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. Don't be so desperate to make a sale that you shoot yourself in the foot. Yeah. Or damage or long term relationship.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah. Yeah. And lending's interesting because, you know, there is a sale, per se, but it's, you know, you've got to get the money back.
Jonathan Mahrt: Right.
Ramsay Brown: So, you know, banking's kind of a weird little unique. Hence, you know, they've got their own MBA program, essentially, Pacifico's banker school. Banking is a very unique industry because, you know, there's the credit risk side. There's all the auditing, you know, the regulator stuff. And so, you know, it's a fun industry to be a part of, but it's very different than, you know, sales. Right. I mean, if you can make the sale and you made the sale. Right. And then you move on.
Jonathan Mahrt: Right.
Ramsay Brown: Whereas, you know, both good and bad, you know, I have multi year, multi decade relationships with people to just continue to service them and take care of them and make sure that they're happy with their rankings.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. So how are bankers conferences, then? Are they. They know how to have a good time.
Ramsay Brown: I mean, like a lot of industries, you know, there used to be a lot more shenanigans than there are anymore, but, you know, it's, it's always fun to swap stories with people at other institutions and, you know, things that have gone well, things that haven't gone well. You know, there's, there's always plenty to talk about.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah, it's crazy when I talk to old timers and, like, different industries and stuff, and even, like, I remember when I was at Ernest Young, and they talk about the things like, for, like, corporate parties and stuff that they used to do back in, like, 80, like, seventies, eighties, and, like, early nineties, I'm like, yeah. What? How is this real?
Ramsay Brown: Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan Mahrt: It's hard to relate to, honestly.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah, well, and it, you know, obviously, there's, there was problems that came out of that.
Jonathan Mahrt: Well, that's fair, you know?
Ramsay Brown: And so, yeah, it's, it's, it's a double edged sword because, yeah, it's too bad that, you know, some of, some of the really fun stuff doesn't necessarily get to take place anymore.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah, baby. With the bath water. But ultimately, probably better. Yeah.
Ramsay Brown: Well, you just never want to put people in the, in a bad position.
Jonathan Mahrt: Exactly. Exactly. Cool. Well, let's talk a little bit about, like, maybe some of the more tangentially, like, related things that you do to be successful. Like, how are you, how are you managing your time, your tasks, things you need to get done, tools you're using, techniques or. What's calendar?
Ramsay Brown: I mean, it's really calendar driven, and being conscious business always pops up randomly, and things have to get done randomly. So you can never totally schedule everything out. Like, you just can't. But making sure that you're staying on top of things as they move along.
Jonathan Mahrt: Are you using any kind of a task manager or are you just kind of dumping everything into your calendar?
Ramsay Brown: Mostly for me, just putting things in the calendar and then, you know, the, the bank has a process system, kind of like a loan origination system. So we have a lot of assistance.
Jonathan Mahrt: For your, like actual work product.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah, exactly. So we have a lot of help in that regard to tracking and, you know, tasks that need to get done and who does them and things like that because I've, you know, I work with, you know, several people.
Jonathan Mahrt: Sure.
Ramsay Brown: On every loan. So there's always a lot of back and forth.
Jonathan Mahrt: What about managing your relationships? Is there like a CRM at the bank or is that just kind of an internal thing you're handling?
Ramsay Brown: I mean, it's, you know, every account has somebody attached to it so you can always look up, you know, the people and their things that are associated with them and things like that. You know, CRMs are expensive and, you know, hard to set up and do well, frankly speaking on, you know, in an industry of any size, you know, they're all, I feel like every CRM I've ever come across is massively underutilized by most of its users.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah, that's interesting. Well, probably. Especially the ones, I mean, not, I mean, they're local banks, but they're probably also using some of, like the biggest names in the CRM space and they're like kind of behemoths.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that is, you know, you get CRMs. Yeah. The software industry, you know, is consolidated too, so there's, you know, several of them to pick from, but they all have massive amounts of capability and it's like, well, you know, when you're managing, you know, 8000 customers or whatever, you know, however many customers the banks have, you know, you don't necessarily need every last widget because, you know, the branch that handles them knows them.
Jonathan Mahrt: Right.
Ramsay Brown: Like, if you really have, like that's, that's, you know, if I really have a question about, hey, I saw this deposit come through for this client. I just call the branch and they know who I'm talking about because it's the same customers they see every day.
Jonathan Mahrt: So you're actually not relying on it that heavily then to manage your relationships?
Ramsay Brown: No, no. And that's part of my role is to really know the relationship extremely well. So, I mean, it really comes down to me as my role is to be that knowledge base and you're just.
Jonathan Mahrt: Keeping it all up in the dome.
Ramsay Brown: I mean, not all of it. It's all in the, you know, it's all saved in a file somewhere.
Jonathan Mahrt: Okay. Okay. I was like. Cause I have a terrible memory for that stuff. So I'm, like, writing stuff down constantly. Like, it's just gonna.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah. And in lending, you know, when you get something approved, you know, there's a big write up that gets done. So a lot of it's really well documented about.
Jonathan Mahrt: So you're kind of working on. Oh, okay. I didn't know that part. So you almost have a narrative to know what's going on.
Ramsay Brown: Absolutely. Yeah. In commercial. And because almost no commercial loan looks like any other commercial loan, no business looks exactly the same as another business. I mean, you get to, like, commercial real estate. Like, a strip mall is a strip mall. Right. But. But even in that strip mall, you've got. Okay, do you have an anchor? Do you not have an anchor? So no two commercial loans ever look exactly the same.
Jonathan Mahrt: Oh, that's interesting. Like, the strip mall thing, like an anchor, like a big major store is going to have a much bigger impact on the performance of the space than if it's a bunch of tiny, tiny.
Ramsay Brown: Mom and pop associated with that. And if you start getting some vacancy, it's really hard to manage. If you don't have an anchor, it's pulling people in.
Jonathan Mahrt: Interesting. That's a whole nother rabbit hole. I'd love to get down. So let's talk a little bit about work life balance, because that's a hot button topic. Constantly, people are. Everyone's trying to figure it out all the time, and I hear a lot of people. I think, to me, my conclusion on it is that there is no such thing as being perfectly balanced. It's kind of like you're on, like, a teeter totter, and you're constantly kind of adjusting back and forth to try and, like, keep it in the sweet spot in your life. Yeah. So what is, like, how do you manage that in your own personal life and find that line?
Ramsay Brown: It's, you know, it's hard. It's really hard. And I've been successful in my career by picking work sometimes.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Ramsay Brown: And so that is definitely a challenge for me, is to, you know, thankfully, I do have good vacation time that I'm required to take every year so it doesn't accrue like crazy. They don't want that happening. So some of it's almost forced upon me to make sure I'm taking those breaks and things like that. But at the same time, like, working for a community bank. Locally, I'm able to drive my kid to school pretty much every day. There's always the offensive thing that I have to do early in the morning or whatever, but that alone is just really nice. And it's, you know, my house. Drop them off at school and go into the office. And so just having those little moments is always good. And then making sure you take the longer vacations to spend some real time with the family and being able to turn off, you know, being proactive in the week or so before you leave for vacation.
Jonathan Mahrt: Right.
Ramsay Brown: So you kind of had to.
Jonathan Mahrt: I had to learn that kind of the hard way. I was like, oh, yeah, I can't, like, a vacation, like, suddenly sneak up on me, and I'm like, oh, I'm not ready for vacation. And, like, being really intentional, like, in the weeks leading up to it, it's like, okay, I gotta, like, deal with all these things I've put off so that they don't spill over onto me during vacation. Cause that causes conflict.
Ramsay Brown: Yes. Yeah, yeah, very much so. Yeah.
Jonathan Mahrt: And then you're not enjoying it because you're stressed out about something. Yeah, yeah.
Ramsay Brown: That is really important.
Jonathan Mahrt: I think that's a great, I think that's a great tip. Yeah.
Ramsay Brown: Calendar out your vacations as far as you can and then really just, like you said, be diligent in the run up, to be in the best position possible to really just turn off.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Ramsay Brown: And not, you know, worst case, you know, scroll through some emails once a day or whatever, but, yeah, just not anything to.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah, I think it's tough. I mean, there's certain people that can just completely turn off, but I think it's really dependent, you know? But I think, like, especially if you're a small business owner, it's pretty hard to, like, completely just, like, disappear and you're all. And you're also working with people that are small, medium sized businesses that have that challenge. So it's probably hard for you to, like, maybe sometimes you need to, you know, be available. Yeah. Last minute. But I think it is important still to be, like, try and minimize those things and be present with your family and spending, having kind of that, like, you know, mental health space, so to speak.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah. Because obviously, you know, being a good relationship manager is taking pride in, you know, having those relationships. And so you can't just ignore a phone call. And, you know, a lot of my clients have my cell phone, and so if there's something needs to get done, like, it'll get done, but, yeah, the more you can prepare and, yeah.
Jonathan Mahrt: Try and minimize that as much as possible. Yeah. And I liked, I like the kind of idea, too, of like, bringing the kids to school that finding pockets and little things in day to day life that you're intentional about. That was a conversation I had with last week's guest is just, I think that's really more impactful than people realize, too. Is being intentional throughout the week about the little things.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah. Yeah. Making sure that work is work, but be present and show up for the parent teacher conferences as much as you can and all that stuff. Stuff. You know it for me, because, you know, my wife is able to be at home, it's easy for me to say, oh, she'll take care of it, but that's not really the way it should be. Right. I mean, I need to be present as a dad and with all the school stuff and all the other things, too. Like, it's easy to say, oh, what, I'm taking care of work, and she'll take care of that stuff. It's like, no, no, you need to really. Yeah. It's part of the whole process.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. And it's easy to, like, you know, if you do have a spouse that stays home, too, it's sometimes easy to, like, think, like, oh, I'm the one working and you're just at home. But, no, you're raising kids. Like, that's a, that's a job. That's a job.
Ramsay Brown: That's a thousand percent a job. But it's easy to be like, okay, she's doing that job.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Ramsay Brown: Like, for me, it's like, okay. You know, she just, she's handling that stuff and that's her job because it is, it's.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Ramsay Brown: Ton of work.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Ramsay Brown: And it's like, but you can't, you don't want to totally silo it off. Like, that's not 100%. Those are your kids. That's your family. Like, you need to be part of that as much as possible.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah, that's great. So let's talk about, let's kind of, I'm trying to ask most people if they're morning or night person and understand, like, kind of what the routine is. Where do you, where do you land in that spectrum?
Ramsay Brown: I'm, you know, I do, I'm my most productive, kind of in the middle of the day, to be honest.
Jonathan Mahrt: That is unusual. That's when everyone's trying to take a nap.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah, I know. You know, my wife gives me a hard time because I like to get up and kind of have my little time to get ready in the morning. And so that kind of, that starts my day well. And, you know, usually in the morning, you kind of knock some stuff out, but, you know, I'll find myself working through lunches just because I'm at that point and getting stuff.
Jonathan Mahrt: So you kind of. You kind of ramp up.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then I get home and play with the kids, and then they, you know, once I can get them to bed, then it's like, okay, now it's just relaxing time.
Jonathan Mahrt: So it's nice.
Ramsay Brown: I'm not particularly productive after the kids go to bed.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah, no, I am, like, very much a morning person, and I. And, like, when I get home, it's real. Like, once we've done, like, dinner and hangout and kids to bed, like, lots of. There's people that can go back to work at that point and get, like, an hour of work in or something like that, or catch them on emails or whatever it is. I just, like, it's really hard once my brain has, like, switched to home life.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah.
Jonathan Mahrt: Like, context switching in terms of, like, where I am is very important to me to be productive.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And for me, like, trying to maintain that work life balance, you know, I really want to do my best to turn work off.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Ramsay Brown: When I leave work, I mean, I work in an office, so it's. But, you know, emails always on your phone and texts and, you know, teams and, you know, you got a million different ways to get communicated to. But I'm also lucky, too. I think the bank that I work for really doesn't want that either.
Jonathan Mahrt: Tries to value that in practice.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah, there's. There's. There's people that work later and people that work earlier, but, you know, respecting.
Jonathan Mahrt: That people are working at different times and not feeling the need to just, like, respond right away.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah. And the bank doesn't want people working crazy hours way late at night. Like, it's just not a, you know, that's good. Not a cultural thing that the bank.
Jonathan Mahrt: I think that's good because lots of times there's companies that say they don't want that, but then, in effect, everyone's doing it anyway. And so it's like, okay, well, what's really the, like, what's really the expectation? You know? Like, yeah, you're. You're checking a box on your core values poster on the wall, but then you're not actually living it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ramsay Brown: You know, current day and age, everybody's struggling with, you know, hiring good quality people and, you know, having enough capacity. And everybody want. You know, businesses always want more productivity from fewer headcount.
Jonathan Mahrt: Right, of course. Yeah.
Ramsay Brown: But. But, yeah, there's. You can do that to a point.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. But I think people are also starting to value that more, so they're less tolerant of being overworked. We can get into. That's a well being. Overworked is a different. You know, it's a different definition for everyone.
Ramsay Brown: Yes.
Jonathan Mahrt: You know, just like, being busy is a different definition for everyone. And what makes people overwhelmed is different for everyone. But just the general idea.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah.
Jonathan Mahrt: So is. We talked. Oh, I wanted to make sure we talked about your morning routine. Cause you said you had kind of a particular thing. Anything special about it?
Ramsay Brown: Not really. Or is it just like, you know.
Jonathan Mahrt: Have my coffee kind of.
Ramsay Brown: Not even coffee. Like, you know, just, you know, 30 or 40 minutes where, frankly, you know, my wife gets up and goes downstairs and starts getting the kids ready for school and stuff like that. So I close the door and really just have, you know, 30, 40 minutes to myself to just take a shower and get dressed and, like. So that little bit of me zone time just gets.
Jonathan Mahrt: It makes a difference. You look great every time.
Ramsay Brown: Every day.
Jonathan Mahrt: That's nice. That. Awesome. So let's get into some of the bonus. Some of the bonus stuff. I do want to. We've talked a little. I do want to end this section in. If you had, like, one piece of advice you'd give to your younger self, what would that be?
Ramsay Brown: I think, you know, like I said, I have picked work sometimes, and, you know, it can seem like it's really helpful in the moment, but you kind of feel. Forget about those moments, and then you think about the things that you didn't do.
Jonathan Mahrt: I can relate to that.
Ramsay Brown: And so, you know, work will always be there. Like, yeah. I mean, like, there will always be more stuff to do at work.
Jonathan Mahrt: And so I relate too much to that. I definitely remember the moments that I picked. I remember the moments that I picked work over. Over family time, but I don't remember what work I picked. I remember the moment that I missed because of it, and it felt so important in the moment.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's. And that's. You know, you go back and you think about, oh, you know, I remember something was on fire, and I canceled this vacation or whatever, and it's like, you can't even remember what that thing that was. It was on fire anymore because it. Yeah, doesn't matter. But you missed the vacation and that.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Ramsay Brown: You know. Yeah, that's what sticks with you, no.
Jonathan Mahrt: One'S like, and I think that's what I keep coming back to in all the conversations, too, with my wife and, like, finding that balance because, like, yeah, you have to work to, like, build something, but at the same time, like, if you're on your deathbed and you're scrolling through photos and albums and stuff, there's no pictures of that thing that was on. Of work or the thing that was on fire at work. Right. It's all the, it's all the things you did with your family or whoever's important to you. You know, it's. It's the time with, with other people. Yeah, I think that's.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah. You know, that's good perspective. Yeah. Making sure that you are, you know, working to live, not living to work.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. Yeah.
Ramsay Brown: And so, you know, and there's definitely some generational stuff that goes along with that.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. That I will say there's people in my life that, that state, that phrase triggers them. Yeah. You know, and I think it's difficult because, especially it does somewhat depend on the industry. Like, someone who comes from a family farming background. Like, it is, like, animal agriculture is. Is a lifestyle thing. Yeah. You can't, like, you know, animals have to be taken care of seven days a week.
Ramsay Brown: You cannot turn it off.
Jonathan Mahrt: Right. So it is a little bit different. And like, that, there are some. And there are some industries and things like that where it is a lifestyle choice, but I think you still have to find a way to, like, work around that. Right. Because once again, like, your animals aren't going to be around your deathbed mourning or loss when you're gone. Right. So it's. It's. It's a difficult balance to find, and it's not easy.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah.
Jonathan Mahrt: So we're oversimplifying it here, and it feels like a difficult decision in the moment, you know? A difficult decision in the moment, so.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah. I mean. Cause that work pressure, I mean, it's. It's always present. Right.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Ramsay Brown: There's always pressure to execute. There's always pressure to get stuff done, and so it can be hard to be like, I know I feel the pressure, but I don't need to handle this right this second.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. And I think it's important, too. Like, it's good to hear about the culture thing. I think it's also a cultural thing in the company because I would say that a lots of times when I was in having to make those decisions, there were opportunities for someone could have, like, if there was a better culture, someone could have stepped in and said, you know what? I got your back. Go do your thing. I'll take care of it. Right. And like, having open and honest communication with each other about those moments and being willing to cover for each other because I almost guarantee in those banking situations there was probably someone else in the bank that could have stepped in and helped you out.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah. And like, when I go on vacation and things like that, you know, you do all the things to prepare and not leave much to do. But, you know, when I leave, I have two people, you know, I have my boss and another lender on my email. I've given both of those people a list of, like, here's what I have kind of active right now. Here's where it's at. If something pops, it's probably going to be one of these things. And here's, here's, here's what to do, you know? Yeah, I know it'll get handled if it really does pop or whatever.
Jonathan Mahrt: And I will say that sometimes in the past it was self inflicted. Like, I could have prepared better. So it's not completely on everyone else. That's, you know, just being, you know, young and dumb and, and not planning well enough. So. But let's get into the bonus questions. So what are some of the books that you've either gifted or recommended the most to people?
Ramsay Brown: That's a tough one. I received Obama's book a while back. That's a really good one.
Jonathan Mahrt: Which one? Because he's had a few of them. Right.
Ramsay Brown: It was his biography one.
Jonathan Mahrt: Okay.
Ramsay Brown: I think it's just called Obama. But that was a really great book. I would recommend that to anybody. Really, really interesting. There's some random banking ones that I've given that I was given and I've passed on to other people about like, problem loans and like weird things like that. That's kind of more industry specific. But there's some, there's some pretty funny ones that, you know, a little bit of tongue in cheek, but talking about, you know, managing a problem loan and things like that, but.
Jonathan Mahrt: Okay. Okay. I appreciate that. So the, and for those interested, there is, in the, in the show notes of the podcast, there's a list of all the books that we talk about on it. So. And you can send me some of the links to those and we'll throw them in there if people want to see because it's always fun. And then what's one thing you would put on a billboard? I'm not talking about like an advertisement, but like, one thing you'd want everyone to see on the side of, like, a busy freeway.
Ramsay Brown: I don't know. I mean, we talked about a lot. I think just, you know, slow down and make sure you're engaged in your life. I mean, that's the hardest thing to do.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Ramsay Brown: When you've got, when you get pulled in a lot of different directions, don't.
Jonathan Mahrt: Be so busy that life passes you by.
Ramsay Brown: Yeah. I mean, you know, there's millions of songs written about it. I mean, it's, you know, it really is a universal kind of platitude, but it's hard to do in the moment.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah.
Ramsay Brown: You've got to figure out.
Jonathan Mahrt: I think it requires, I think it's because it requires intentionality. You, like, have to constantly come back around and refocus on it and prioritize, like, being mindful. And I think that's what's hard, because it's easy just to get, I mean, everyone talks about it, you know, but I think the reason you have to keep talking about it is because it's easy, like, to get lost in just the rat race and just like, just.
Ramsay Brown: Like once you're on that hamster wheel.
Jonathan Mahrt: It'S hard to get off unless you.
Ramsay Brown: Like, really try and slow it down to a point where you can step off.
Jonathan Mahrt: Yeah. And making those decisions. Okay. So. Well, Ramsey, it's been wonderful having you on. It's great conversation. Thank you so much.
Ramsay Brown: Absolutely.
Jonathan Mahrt: This has been an episode of on the Flywheel. Episodes are released every Sunday, and you can follow us wherever podcasts are found. Thank you.